evolution

because sarah must be right

"sarah must be right"


Well, obviously.

Now, if you would all just take that as a given ... we'd save SO MUCH time.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you're always right. I do give kudos to your intuition based on your responses on here and what-not, but you give me no indication what-so-ever of being always right. However, you seem to be right more than most (especially sor-wack, but I still find that person entertaining), but definietly not more than me, 'cause I am all knowing and just plain cooler than everybody on here. Although I'm not the coolest person in the world, mostly because I'm on here. Damn you Joe, i'm a ugoto addict (and full of myself)

NO !!

I'm totally always right.

I AM, I say !


grrr


lol

Okay, I'll let you believe that, but i'm still righter.

Well ... well ...


Shut up.





lol

right on

text

you could say though that creationism is explaining evolution/the big bang/etc in a way that would make sense over 2,000 years ago, its not like they knew about half the ideas and words that go with those ideas.

you have to rememer that while you might believe that the bibe was divinely inspire it was penned by men and because of that it is far from perfect.

yes man wrote the bible from the words that god gave them, back then of course words were said and written differently than now,but when you really study the bible and I do mean study then most of what is written makes alot of sense, even to day to day problems. like with all that is going on now all the wierd weather, the floods, hurricane earthquakes all of these things are written in the bible that they will come to past in the end times. There has been alot of study on evolution and they cannot prove that theory. I know everyone has there own beliefs, thats the freedom of choice! its just hard to discount the facts of the bible.

check out the bible code, even more deep secrets!

they use a bible like a wordsearch and pick out things, like 9/11. In a matrix near eachother, there was stuff like "twin towers" and the date and stuff

yes, anything that has come to past is found in the bible.it is just described a little different than the words we know now but still means the same thing. I have seen alot of the end time predictions come true already and some are going on now its very interesting.

but the bible code isnt like what the bible says, its like a word search

just google it and read about it

ok, I'll do that and let your know what I think!

I did glance over the site a little it looks like things are just explained a little bit better or easier than the bible, and explains the different prophecies that have come to past and the ones still to come it looks really interesting I'll have to go back later and spend more time reading over it. Thanks!

um i'd just like to question a few words you said in your last comment, like the "facts' of the bible. The bible doesn't give all that many facts, it tells stories and if you find the need to look for 'facts' to prove the bible is unfallible, that could be attributed to a lack of faith.

And yeah, the theory of evolution is a 'theory' because the scientific community needs proof. There is however lots of evidence that indicates that this theory had credince however due to the long time it takes to evolve it can not be called a unarguable fact for some time, and evn then it will have people willing to argue against it.....i hope that doesn't sound too aggressive, it didn't mean to come out that way

first of all, no you did not come across as agressive just stateing your opinion! I do not look to the bible for proof of anything per say just that so much has already come to past, and even now are happening. Yes the bible has alot of stories, they are meant to teach a lesson or to help solve everyday problems. It's there to turn to when you need help with whatever is going on in your life. It also gives us predictions of the thing to come and what is going to happen. With evolution, life comes from life, life had to start somewhere, it couldn't have just happened then we envolved from some ape or something, an ape had to come from somewhere. I have read a few books on evolution and in the end they really couldn't prove that theory, Darwin,Flew was atheist for many years, but changed his mind a few years ago about god and the bible. So yes I do believe the bible and how the world was created.!

i thought you were the jesus type?

What got you to think that?
Im from the same religion as you are.

there was some girl who was ultra religious, and her name started with 0

but your a jew?

Lol! You're confusing me with someone else.
OJ is my nickname here, but my name starts with M.
And yes, Im jew. Was born in Israel.

now thats the young hotness

never been to israel, i want to go though

but in the southpark (my savior and prophet) where that happens, everyone dies

I believe in South Park.

I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows.

I believe in La Chupa Cabra.

well big foot lives in my state

There's a guy down here that hunts for bigfoot and his way of saving the species is to find one and kill it.

my sons got a big foot, 2 actually

what is the south park? obviously not the cartoon!!

yes the cartoon

ok, I'm having a slow moment here! I was reading the comment s between you and monkey you said southpark my prophet and savior I thought you meant something else!

just do as your quote says

will do!!

well another one who believes in god! I have to say the same thing with everything that has happened I'v been saved over and over, as a matter of fact my oldest son got in a car wreck down the road trying to avoid hitting a deer, he swerved off the foad hit 3 trees and when he was found had a big limb about 10 in round and 5ft long sticking out the front windsheild how it did not go through his head is a miracle, it stopped a few inches from his face god was definitly envolved in that! Yes God excists!!!

First I would like to address Cronus comment. The bible has proven to be scientifically right over and over again. Isaiah described, "the circle of the earth that is hanging upon nothing," at a time when people believed that it was flat and rested on the back of an animal. Long before the advent of the telescope, and before even theories of the earth being round were formed.

******* doesnt sound like round earth to me... sounds like a description of an orbiting planet... specifically the orbital path itself...



Second ********* lots a stuff in there for lots a other posts... big bang darwinism..dinosaurs...

a school board in kansas just got fired for trying to blast that creationist stuff on everyone.


If you don't believe in God, that is fine your religion is always your choice. *****

and if you do believe in god...also your choice.

The circle of the earth is actually a description of the earth itself, The hebrew word there is one that conveys a sense of fullness spherical, rather than just a 2 dimensional shape or a path. I will get back to you with some of the references on that later if you really want them. (at work right now)

Yes the choices go both ways... But you do not need to reverse my words to express that, it is implied in my statement.

Why must you attempt to find error with everything? you obviously failed, but what is the motivation?

yes your right religion is a persons choice and people especially children should be taught both so they can make there own choices instead of the government trying to make the choice for them by not allowing the bible or christianity being taught in the schools, only evolution, what kind of choice is that?

i don't understand why Chrsitians make such a big deal out of that. One, the Constitution forbids it. Public schools are governemnt funded, so any religious activities would be government sponsored, which is illegal. Second, is Sunday School not enough? Or just Church in general? If you want a religious education, send your kids to a catholic school or some such thing. That is where you go for religious education. Schools teach science. Religion and anything related to it is not science.

evolution is also a religion so to speak, they teach that in school,believing in evolution is basically being athiest, thats a kind of religion all I'm saying why does everything always have to be one set rule, if someone doesn't like it then get rid of it no matter what anyone else wants, why not all things be taught if you don't want to be a part of it then don't but if you do then its there. Thats one big problem with this world everyone wants to tell everyone else how to live when they think there way is right and your is wrong, and that is just wrong

science is not religion. religion requires nothing but faith. science requires proof. what i was getting at anyway was that public schools do a shitty job of basic education anyway, why would any religious person what their kids to learn some fucked up bullshit about their religion?

for ne religion is not just by faith alone its also by the things or miracles I would call them,that I have seen. My oldest son got in a really bad car wreck last night right down the road from our house, he swerved to miss a deer hit a tree spun around hit another tree kept going and hit 2 more trees, he blacked out and when he came to a log about oh 10 inches around 5ft long had come through the back wind shield to the front passenger window and was sticking out just a few inches from his face he could have been killed or seriously hurt by all that and especially with that log, the way it was positioned it should have went through him ,now god was looking ou for him is all I can say and he walked away without a scratch his car is completly totaled, to me thats a miracle!! I glad my babys ok!!

it says "circle"

earth is a sphere! bible looses

*Judges??*

BZZZZZZZZZZZT!


Sorry, we can't accept that answer. The answer we were looking for is "oblate spheroid" again, thats "oblate spheroid".

on the category "shape of earth"

sphere should be 2

Yes, but technically, sphere implies an even distribution of volume.
4/3piR^3

The earth is more egg shaped (more mass on one side with 2 focii) and smooshed at the poles.

This is the reason why the Earth doesn't rotate exactly around the geometric pole, and has some nutation as well.

i never disagreed with you

I just had to drive the point home, since my focus is quite limited these days.

focus? what were we talking about?

BZZZZZZT!

There is no hebrew word equivelent to "sphere" or "Oblate spheroid"

So "Circle" is the most correct translation and description.

AMEN, finally someone who thinks like me, I thought I was the only one on ugoto that believed in god!!

Having Faith is not a difficult concept, but it seems that many have it confused. Faith is not blindly believing in something you can't prove. Facts compliment my faith a great deal.

When someone looks at an Airplane they know that it was built by people, manufactured. Then they can look at the bird it was fashioned after and say that it came from nothing at all.

If Evolution is how we came about, where did the original inorganic material come from? Man cannot recreate the situations they theorize in a laboratory with any conditions, and if they did succeed, in the larger scheme who is the scientist?

Science supports god more than it does a random unintelligent beginning.

Faith is not blindly believing in something you can't prove. Facts compliment my faith a great deal. **********

Actually Faith IS believing in something you have no facts to support.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=faith

check out number 2

You chose one out of nine definitions. All of the other definitions simply say "A belief in..." Beliefs are most often substantiated by some facts. E.G. I have faith my baseball team will win the world series this year because they have the best record in baseball.

God gives us plenty of reasons to have faith in him.

I was going for faith, the word, period, not how jews or christian or budda or this or that group... simple linguistics.....

not believe .. not unconditional...just plain the word faith... the other 8 were all mystical like...

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

That one doesn't sound very mystical. and the example is perfect. Why would you have faith in someones abilities if you had no evidence of what they could do?

that is true about faith, for me I have proof there is God. and that is what I find hard about the evolution thing, we had to come from life ,if not god then who?!

now I really loved that one! I have to remember that one! you cannot make life out of nothing or dead matter, it just cannot be done. scientists have tried to prove evolution for so long to no avail!

Another thing to think about...Out of all the millions of fossils found, why haven't they found one that is IN BETWEEN evolutionary stages?

they have

they have found old human remains that have differrent amounts of hair

What am I missing? Sounds more like adaptation i.e. those closer to the equator have more melanin produced because of the sun.

adaption is evolution

because there is no in between stages. I'v read a few books on evolution they don't even come close to proving it.darwin could never give a straight answer on any questions that were asked of him with his theories. If there is no God why do we know right from wrong, where would the thoughts even come from? why would there be consequences for the things we do or don't do? why do we have a consious? If people would really just truly think about it there could be no other way the earth and all on it was made except by God

"because there is no in between stages".... yeah there is, there is lots of evidence showing the evolution of man, this is more than simple adaptation such as skin colour (as we are all homo sapien sapiens regardless of colour) but different human species such the Neanderthals who have different descendant lines. There is linkage with the 'homo' group (cant remember the precise names but one is erectus) but also (that i find quite interesting) that we no only are we not the only type of human that have existed and that at one point in time there was three or four 'types' of human

'If there is no God why do we know right from wrong' -- these things are culturally defined and what is seen to be 'good', is behaviour that is for the benefit of individual as well society. These things tend to have a concurrence about them but are not universal by any means.

why would there be consequences for the things we do or don't do? -- once again these things are socially/culturally defined such as in India where a rape victim is murdered as 'she' brings shame to her family. consequences to actions are defined buy the society in which we live.

why do we have a conscious? ....well you could say that it simply a by product of having a brain which is capable of introspective thought among other things which could be explained as our 'evolutionary advantage' over other animals as we dont have speed, teeth or claws that are any good to us. (I’m big on procrastination, when i should be studying lol)

yes there are so called different species of humans but where did they come from what did they evolve from? You can only have life from life right so how do you evolve from nothing? If knowing right from wrong come from our cultural back ground where did that originate from? Having laws to live by where did that originate from? Where did the first ape we supposily come from come from? Did it evolve from nothing? Where did all these things that we live by bacic prencipals come from it didn't just happen?

"yes there are so called different species of humans but where did they come from what did they evolve from?" -- Im really not in the mood to do evvolution research at the moment however there is a step by step process from where we crawled out of the primordial ooze to where we are now but we can from basic hominid-like ape from which we adapted to meet new conditions that faced us.

"You can only have life from life right so how do you evolve from nothing?" -- you are right that we havn't created 'life' from nothing and I am happy leaving this in God's hand for the mean time even though he has seemd to make a couple of fuck ups in his time ie Hitler, Stalin, Thatcher, any rapist/murderer/etc. however we are making leaps in bounds in medical science such as embyronic reseach (oh and including invetro fertilisation which could count as making life, but its not using nothing...so its just a step)

"If knowing right from wrong comes from our cultural back ground where did that originate from? Having laws to live by where did that originate from? -- well this is more a political history thing and if you want more information you might want to read some Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau (especially about the 'natural state of man' and the 'nable savage') and Machiavalli (as he talks extensively about the good of the state (which is then good in turn for pricipalities)

Where did the first ape we supposily come from come from? Did it evolve from nothing? Where did all these things that we live by bacic prencipals come from it didn't just happen -- I think i have attempted to answer this in the above sections

God didn't make the fuck ups in hitler or anyone else, god gave us a mind of our own to either make good choices or bad choices, to live right or wrong those people made there own bad choices in how they wanted to live and treat other people most of those people wanted power however they could get it and they made the choices to be killers and rapists. You make the choice of how you want to live and unfortunatly theres alot of very sick people out there who make really horrible choices thats nothing to do with God, thats being humans doing the wrong things with there life.

ok.....you didn't really address the many points I brought up and in a effort to keep this debate on track I wont reply to your comment properly, not out of rudeness though...i hope you understand

I'm sorry I tried to stay on track here! The political part I don't know much about but I wrote down the names and will look for those books to read. As for the insemination stuff and all you still need live eggs to carry that off yes its been studied on how to do that but they learned it from already having a life to work with. its just advanced technolog from what we already have. Like I said I don't really know about the political part so I'll have to read up on that.

but if god created us, he created everything. To be very blunt, you can't pick and choose what god creates. If god created us, he created everything relating to us as well. which means he created the mentally retarded, the capacity for Hitlers and such, the psychopaths, etc.

thats true he did create everything to do with us, but we choose what direction we want to go in our lives he does not control us we have the free will to choose. for instance I choose to be a good person I don't want to kill anyone, or rob anybody or have a craving for power so that is the way I'am a person chooses to kill someone or rob them or do whatever they need to do for power because that is how they want to live. If you say get drunk and drive and kill someone it wasn't gods fault you chose to do that but everyone blames god for bad things or bad choices God didn't make our personalities we choose them.

and you don't need to believe in god to be like that. i'm an athiest, and I have yet to be anything other than a good person. again, religion and morality aren't the same.

You got that right.

Here in Utah, its the land of the hypocrites.

I've known more religious folks that screw each others wives, coke up, drink, gamble etc...than I do non Mormons that dont.

They have the option to repent. So, naturally, God/Jesus forgives them.

I've never been religious and for the most part, I'm one of the more moral people I know. I have high standards, and integrity that very few have.

yes, I think you can be a good person without necasarily believing in god I was a good person to before i accepted christ but I wasn't good enough, I'm alot different now I look at things differently now , I think differently now about things than I did before. Like I said before I'm not trying to tell you I'm right your wrong, just what I believe in ok?!

scientists can create amino acids from basically nothing. After eletrically shocking those acids, life began to form. From that stuff that forms came everything else. We didn't 'come from nothing' as you say, but from those amino acids. After millions of years of evolution, we're here now, and we'll be different millions of years from now. Whether you want to sidestep it by calling it simply 'adaptation' or whether you want to admit we evolve is up to you. But, to be perfectly honest, there is a reason that the greatest power the church ever held was during the Dark Ages

I found a chart showing the worlds populations, their median IQ and their 'importance' of religion.

I'll find it to stir up some shi...er I mean, find it so you can read it.

http://w-uh.com/posts/031226a-religio n_vs_IQ.html

But I can't find the others I saw just a few days ago when this blog came about.

cool

that blog info was from 2003 heres another better list

http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/001523.html

Practically nothing is the key. something has to be there. One law that science even holds itself to, Matter cannot be created or destroyed.

right, but the point is that (aside from that genetic crap, which i don't agree with) we can create the necessary elements for life to begin.

Only be reusing existing elements.

If there is no God why do we know right from wrong,

- Because we've decided what we accept as good behavior to keep an orderly society, and made laws against what we don't like


why would there be consequences for the things we do or don't do?

- it's called cause and affect. also, see my above comment. the consequences are usually those we have decided upon for the last several hundred years

why do we have a consious?

-because we've been taught what society sees as 'right' and 'wrong', and when we do something that goes against that, we feel guilty.

but where did all of societies laws originate from or who? If there was no bible there would be nothing to go by for societys laws or our concious or anything else or even a sense of purpose for our life. Through all these billions of years man has been able to invent new things, new ways of life to be able to take care of ourselves in this world where did the knowledge come from we just happen to be this way? It all had to start somwhere, human minds did not come from an ape.

you might want to read the comment i left about political history, this helps to outline the start of modern political histroy but before that you might want to consider looking at Plato's 'The Republic' which talks about the running of society, these things are not natural it is an evolution of ideas of which it is worth saying democracy might well be one...and these ideas arn't 'just come up with' they are written down, learned, critiqued and challenged with new ideas coming up e.g. not using capital punishment could be a modern day example

they originated from a need to have some sort of stable society. government has existed thousands of years before Christianity, Judaism, Islam, even Hinduism and Buddhism. They have nothing to do with government at all. Look at what the Bible says is illegal/sinful and look at what is illegal just in the US. They're different. And, thankfully, the US is not a Christian nation yet. Why? Read the Bible....

maybe thats the US problem, maybe if there were a little more morals and more goodness in people it would be a better place to live. I don't tell anyone how to live except my children which is my job, its really useless in most cases, and if someone is living like I don't agree with I simply don't have to hang out with them you know? But as I'v said before I think everybody needs something, a higher power to believe in to be able to survive this world! I'v just had too many experiences in my life not to believe in god!

maybe thats the US problem, maybe if there were a little more morals and more goodness in people it would be a better place to live*****

we are forced to build electrified fences at the border and they are still sneaking in...maybe you wanna go live in moral France...snicker

no, thank you things are bad enough here, I have very little interest in going to just about any other country where things are worse than they are here!!

i see what you are saying, but morals and religion aren't the same thing. what i meant about being thankful the US isn't a Christian nation is the blatant hate and bigotry toward everybody. You yourself would be affected - women are to obey their husbands in everything they say and do, etc. I don't know of any Chrsitian women who would agree to that, but that is Chrsitianity. It's a male dominated religion, just like all modern monotheistic ones. Women are just property. Aside from the fact that there would no longer be a democracy, and the wealthy would control everything....wait...they already do...

thats probably the big part of the bible I really don't go for I'm nobodys property and I'm not very good at being told what to do either! I will honor my husband but he is to honor me also. Actually I think it goes"woman honor your husbands and husbands honor your wife as you do god, something like that anyway! I really do think morals and religion are pretty close though!

But I guess an almighty being waving his magic wand and creating everything makes more sense.

well yes it does maybe not quite put that way but,if we envolved from apes where did they come from, they couln't have just evolved from nothing because nothing was here before God.Our values our principals, the way we do or don't do things comes from somewhere it originated from somewhere. Our minds our intelligence did not come from an ape. Animals have no thoughts for themselves except for survival with what they were given to use, they cannot be calious, deliberatly mean and cruel or kill for fun, there only thing is for survival. Men or humans make those choices of there own free will, animals don't. How do you explain all these things on evolution?!

animals do think and even have dreams, monkeys use basic 'tools' such as stick to retrive food where their finger can't reach. this comes from a certain level of thinking, our thinking is more complicated and organised and is our "evolutionary advantage" our brian and thinking let us survive and become dominate. in the same way the dinosaurs had size, big teeth and claws for their advantage

oh and talking about killing for fun you also might want to look at monkeys who have been known to do this as well as a basic form of prostitution where the female offers sex for food. its real, google that shit lol

animals are smart in animal ways, they can also be taught different tricks and thing from {humans} But can they build houses, do technlogy,work computers do things that humans can do? I would not like to be compared to the intelligence of an animal. I think humans are a little smarter than animals!

animals are smart in animal ways, they can also be taught different tricks and thing from {humans}. ---the monkeys using 'tools' and prostitution are not things these monkeys have learned from humans, these are wild monkeys I am talking about.

But can they build houses, do technlogy,work computers do things that humans can do? I would not like to be compared to the intelligence of an animal. I think humans are a little smarter than animals! -- I'm not saying that you are little smarted than an animal im saying that our intelligence is comparable to that of a animal and that the way we have evolved as a species is to be intelligent as opposed to fast or strong


oh and about your comment on building homes, i dont think that i could make one of these....well atleast not without a bit of ducktape and glue

(This comment was modified on Aug 14, 2007 10:17 PM)

(This comment was modified on Aug 14, 2007 10:18 PM)

well sure they can build there own homes, and learned how to get what they want ina manner of speaking, I think they are smart somewhat in the way they survive and all. I live way out in the country where I see all kinds from deer, bears cougars I heard one didn't get to see it,turkeys you name it I watch them everyday and have alot of respect for them but I still can't see myself evolveing from an ape.

"well sure they can build there own homes, and learned how to get what they want ina manner of speaking, I think they are smart somewhat in the way they survive and all." -- well thats how we go to where we are now, we learned to make spears, cultivate then recreate fire. Animals can learn and adapt behaviour, they probably wont ever be as smart as us simply because they dont need to they have other adaptations that have served them well in terms of survival. We on the other hand have mastered our enviroment and will evolve to this new enviroment. such as we no longer need these large jaws we will probably be more skinny as we have food on call now and things like this all could have an influence to how we will change in the future



(This comment was modified on Aug 16, 2007 03:03 PM)

well sure I believe we evolve that way, we have to change with the times and the way the world changes we better keep up with that also in order to survive! I think we have evolved from what people were and how they lived thousands of years ago to the way we are now and it will keep going till the end of time, that kind of so called evolution I believe in, just not the come from apes or nothing kind!!!

im not talking about 'changing with the times' im saying that certain changes in our behaviour/conditions/envi ronment physically change us. you were just saying that animals are not able to learn and to adapt their behaviour while i on the other hand do believe the can.

i think you need to stop focusing on the ape part of it as i thnk it is scaring you a tad. im not saying we are what we used to be, im just pointing out where we have come from.

animals have'nt adapted to well out here as far as staying of the foads are concerned ha ha!! I'm not saying your wrong for how you believe or I'm right just that for me it's right for me to believe the way I do. There's alot of questions out there about the world, how we got here how it all began, just for me I believe in the bible and what it says and have faith in the existance of God.

so you're saying god wasn't always here? where did he come from then? who created god?

well you got me there, according to the bible god was just there, then he created everything else. I guess its just faith that there is a god, the proof that hes there with you. I don't know how to expain it. I guess I go by all the things that have happened in my life, the miracles that I have seen in my own life that I know God had to have had his hand on me Don't get me wrong I'm not a great christian or anything I don't go to church and all but I do believe in a greater power, God, I think people need to believe in something in order to survive in this suck-ass world we live in and a hope for a better life after we die.

that's why religion is so powerful. a lot of people don't seem to be able to deal with the fact that life just sucks a lot of the time, and so they need to make things up.

Oh....you don't need to go to church to be christian. Most church goers I've met personally are evil, snobbish, stuck up, elitist assholes who deserve something very very bad to happen to them.

ouch! i go to Church ...

hey alex. . maybe that's why i have had such a bad year. .fuc*ed up ankle, then hand . .. . but i do agree with you that u do not have to go to Church to be a Christian . .

and you talk to your self too........

insessently! i was hoping u'd notice!

yes, life does suck sometimes, but I for one did not make god up. I'm not trying to say I'm right your wrong, I'm just saying how I believe and why I believe that way. A person is going to believe what they want to, and generally someone cannot change a persons mind, sometimes they can, but what to do about it?! I'v been trying to change my older sons mind for a few rears now to no avail but maybe one day I will! and I truly hope so!

This is where I wave a big flag over my head and people attack me. but this is a great question!

If you take science as evidence that god does in fact exist (which I have made the choice to do)then you accept his word as infallible, so when he said "I am the Alpha and the Omega." and mentions having no beginning, you believe the supreme being of the universe. Being all powerful how are we to know that he did not create time itself. and science does theorize that time actually did have a beginning.

and now I just made myself sound completely insane.

(This comment was modified on Aug 15, 2007 03:09 PM)

not at all. time did have a beginning. if you want to get into newer quantum theories, time has had many beginnings.

And at this point we get to a place where we can't even theorize what happened before. So, if there is a god may he have mercy on us!

you said everything! don't waste your time anymore. there is a story about pearls and piggs...

nope, probably not, but its fun to have a good debate now and then as long as people don't get mad and everything, keeps people talking!! It's one of those things where everybodys right and the other is wrong, but I enjoy it any way!!

You do know the Pope has said there are a lot of things that indicate there is credence to evolution....just saying.......

religous people aren't the ones looking for answeres scientists are the ones who are trying to prove something find logical answeres, christians beleves in the bible and what it says. The questions I have I guess I'll have to wait till I see him and ask him then!

I bet it was one of those trick Masse jump shots.

I saw someone tear the felt on a table trying one of those once. Glad it wasn't me.

There was a sign on the wall of the old Marzanos Bowl poolroom... No Masse Shots

and a three fingered guy at the counter to enforce it.

I saw the same sign at my local establishment. Except the dancers on the poles enforced the rules there.